Note: See also the files: sca-hist1-msg, sca-hist3-msg, sca-stories1-msg, vanity-plates-msg, placenames-msg, Hst-sca-fence-art, you-know-msg

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SCA-hist2-msg - 8/20/94
Messages on the history of the SCA from 3/93 until 8/94.
NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-hist3-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, vanity-plates-msg, placenames-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg.

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at:
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at


"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift.  Historians carve the sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."
-   From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.

From: PB06098 at uafsysb.uark.EDU (Paul Byers)


Subject: Fighting Hamsters

Date: 12 Mar 1993 05:06:46 -0500
The Calontir song of fighting hamsters is written for me. (large grin and

swelling of breast!)

Back at pensic 12, or was it 13? anyway, In those days I fought with a duck

taped hamster on my helm. (plastic, sword and shield, brown.) That was the year I introed the Calon shield wall. I was the center scutum, anchoring the whole line. All my secondarys were females. All through the different assaults they would hit my hamster with their pommels. hamster would squeak, they would giggle, I would yell/whine 'girls! Please!' and the foe sore confused.

later in the war a great sword blew the poor hamster off my helm. We recovered

him and got him drunk. After that for a few years most of the calon army wore

hamsters on or in their helms. I still have my original hamster somewhere.
Enough. If you want to hear more E-mail me while I'm at a real editor.
Pavel (still in combat with the dual demons NDIS and ODI!)


From: cozzlab at ()


Subject: Re: Heraldic Titles

Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:02:57 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Tim at (Tim) writes:

> I've wondered the same -- I wonder even more at the "chronicler" being a

> Great Officer of State; ....
Once upon a time it wasn't. In the days when Hal and I were Chroniclers

for the West, it was a Lesser Office under the Seneschal. And a good

thing too, because it meant that Hal and I had the Seneschal, Sir William

the Lucky, running interference between us and Jon de Cles, the Steward

from Hell, who lived just up the hill from us. But that's another story.
On the other hand, in those days Lesser Officers didn't swear fealty, and

Laurels and Pelicans didn't swear fealty, so that Hal and I never had a

chance to do so until we had dropped out (during the years when the kids

were too rambunctious to take to tourneys) and dropped back in again and

the rules had changed meanwhile. So you win some and you lose some....
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at

From: cozzlab at ()


Subject: Re: O.P.....?

Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:34:46 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

sclark at epas.utoronto.CA (Susan Clark) writes:

> Trivial question: is "O.P." an accepted abbreviation for "Order

> of the Pelican"?
You see, it means something different to me:

> namely, it is the accepted abbreviation for the Order of Preachers

> (ordo predicatoris), otherwise known as the Dominican Friars.
You bet. Which is why, when the Order of the Pelican was just getting

into the swing of things, many people who hadn't minded "O.L." got

worried about how confused other people might get about "O.P." and

suggested Pelicans should be described as "Companions of the Pelican,"

abbreviated "C.P.", and tried to back-adapt the other Orders to say

"Companion" too.

"Companions of the Pelican" sounds to me rather like that Blackfox

cartoon where the new Pelican (the SCA kind) is sitting on the dock

with a bunch of pelicans (the bird kind) discussing fish and stuff.
But then, I am a Westie....
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at


From: ddfr at (david director friedman)

Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda

Organization: University of Chicago

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 04:22:01 GMT

"The story I heard was that Yang and some fencing buddies went to an

SCA event for the first time, bearing more live steal than the rest

of the kingdom (midrealm, I believe) possessed at that time. Anyway,

the story is that they were not too kindly received, and formed the

Horde as a way of participating in the SCA while avoiding the more

stodgy old-guard types."

(David the Fretful)
I am not sure what counts as stodgy old-guard types; at the time you

are describing the kingdom was less than two years old. So far as I

can tell, Yang wanted to participate in the SCA without being in

allegiance to the King of the Middle, and formed the Horde as a way

of doing so. I think part of the idea was to provide a symbolic enemy

for the kingdom, as a way of creating useful competition--"we are

braver/cleverer/more honorable than you, and if you don't believe it

prove we are wrong by being brave/clever/honorable." At least, that

was the way I read his purpose at the time, and I cannot see any

later evidence that I was wrong.

I do not think that authenticity had anything to do with it, in

either direction--which is why I took issue with your previous post.


From: andrewt at (Andrew Terrance Trembley)


Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda

Date: 8 Apr 1993 01:40:35 GMT

Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

From deane at (David Matthew Deane):

> formal structure of the SCA. Now, the story I was told was that there was some

> friction between Yang and his friends, and those who were running things in the

> Midrealm when they joined the SCA. Doubtless this has been exaggerated in the

> telling. Or perhaps it is entirely ficticious. But I didn't mean to say that
Well, I have it on good authority (Lady Fey, I can hardly pronounce her full

name, much less spell it, of Zenith Pages School in Caer Anterth Mawr,

ex-tarkahn, and Grand Old Lady of the Dark Horde) that when Yang joined SCA,

it was because he and some of his fencing buddies thought they were going to

show these SCA folk (Northwoods) what real swordfighting was. As it turned

out, they did really well in the tourney. However, their "garb" was the

same color as the then Baron of Northwood's colors, and he got a little

miffed. I can get better details if I can talk Fey into writing the whole

story down.
Basically, if I have the story right, the whole Horde was improvised on the

spot for entertainment value, and slowly but surely took on a life of its

as always, I'm...

Andries de Hoog


as always, I'm... Andy Trembley andrewt at

From: KGANDEK at (Kathryn Gandek)


Subject: Tuchux at Coopers

Date: 11 Apr 1993 16:08:03 -0400

I can't make any authoritative statements about who discovered Cooper's Lake as

a site, but I can cite one early use of Cooper's by SCA and Tuchux before it

was ever used as the site for the Pennsic War. Back in the reign of Asbjorn

and Brekka (the reign in which Pennsic IV occurred), the King's Champion

Tourney was held at Cooper's Lake. My husband drove out there with Asbjorn

and has a very vivid memory of qualifying several tuchux fighters, including

a tuchux fighter with a prosthetic leg. As many people on the Rialto (but not

myself) can cite from personal experience, Pennsic IV was deluged by rain at

someplace other than Cooper's Lake.
So, somebody in the Pittsburgh area - be they SCA or Tuchux - discovered

Cooper's Lake was a neat site to hold an event. And, presumably, at some later

point it dawned on someone that it was a good place for the Pennsic War. I

don't know who was there first, but both the SCA and Tuchux were there before

the Pennsic War was.
Catrin o'r Rhyd For Kathryn Gandek-Tighe

Barony of Carolingia Boston area

East Kingdom kgandek at

From: cozzlab at ()


Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight

Date: 16 Apr 1993 23:06:29 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:

> ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight

> templars through Masonic Orders. He stated it was because

> the first knight of the SCA was a knight templar of the

> Masons.
Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons. Siegfried von Hoflichskei (David

Thewlis) and Fulk de Wyvern (Ken deMaiffe) had been knighted--whether I

should surround that with quotes, I honestly don't know--by somebody

they met in Europe. When they got back to the States, they knighted

(same disclaimer) some of their friends, e.g., Jon deCles (Donald

Studebaker). At the first tourney in Diana's back yard, Ardral Argo

verKaeysc (David Bradley) fought well enough that they knighted him

on the spot. Then at Twelfth Night, year Two (was it Two? I think

so...) Siegfried knighted whoever was King at the time (William the

Silent?) and he knighted everybody else (including Fulk and Siegfried

and Jon), "bootstrapping the Order," as Siegfried later put it.
The attitude that "only a knight can make a knight" dates back at least

that far.

I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some

of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.

But whether this guy in Europe was a templar, a Mason, a "real" knight,

a fantasy knight, or just a figment of somebody's imagination, I haven't

a clue. Maybe someday I'll run into Siegfried again and remember to

ask him.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at

From: cozzlab at ()


Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight

Date: 19 Apr 1993 02:31:17 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Pegasus at (LaurieEWBrandt) writes:

> cozzlab at wrote:


>> WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:


>> > ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight

>> > templars through Masonic Orders. ....


>> Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons. ....

>> I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some

>> of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.


>Could some one in An Tir Barony of Three Mountians ask Sir Jamie of the

>Oakenshield who was knighted in Jan 6 as 2 [1968] about the truth of the

Oh, is Sir Jamie still active (or active again)? How nice. Yes, he

was one of the seven knights from Twelfth Night, AS 2. I have my book

here and the other six were Bela of Eastmarch, Fulk de Wyvern, Karl vom

Acht, Kerry the Rock, Siegfried von Ho"flichskeit, and Steven of the

Ashenlands. Edwin Bersark and Richard of Mont Real were made Masters-

of-Arms, and Alfonso de Castile and Beverly Hodghead Masters of the

Laurel. It was quite a night. I helped write the ceremonies, including

the Oath of Fealty (borrowed mostly from Tolkien) which is still used in

the West Kingdom to this day.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at

From: David Schroeder


Subject: Re: SCA Geography

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 11:56:40 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Good Bjalfi and readers --
My favorite SCA geographical puzzler is:
Q: What was the first kingdom in the SCA?

A: The answer, surprisingly, is "The East"

The West, of course, is earlier, but evidently

referred to itself as "The Society" or "The Mistlands"

and only became "The West Kingdom" when there was an

East Kingdom for contrast... At least that's what I

heard from Seigfried von Hoflichtkeit.
Another might ask why, geographically, the Midrealm's kingdom

newsletter was called "The Pale" ? It seems the "original"

Middle Kingdom stretched all the way down to New Orleans and

therefore the Midrealm formed a pale on the vaguely shieldlike

shape of North America.
How many kingdoms border the Great Lakes?

2: East and Middle

Where to the largest number of kingdoms intersect?

I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question...

Do the East, Middle, Atlantia, and Meridies touch anywhere? No.

There are _lots_ of three-kingdom intersections...

What about Outlands, Atenveldt, Caid, and the West...?
Perhaps a better question would be:
Q: Which kingdom has the largest number of bordering kingdoms?
A: The Middle borders the East, An Tir, Calontir, Meridies, & Outlands
Q: What are the meanings of the non-obvious kingdom names?

A: Ansteorra -- "one star/lone star (sort of)"

An Tir -- "the land"

Calontir -- "heartlands"

Meridies -- "south"

Trimaris -- "three seas" (Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Atlantic)

Drachenwald -- "dragon wood"

Caid -- acronym for Calafia, Angels, Isles, & Dreiburgen

their first 4 baronies... also Arabic? for fortress
Oertha -- "north"

Ealdormere -- "old lakes"

AEthelmearc -- "noble border"
Enjoy -- Bertram

From: mchance at (Michael Chance)

Subject: Re: SCA Geography

Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 20:10:41 GMT
Kvedjur fra Mikjal till Bjalfi!
Try this one: What is the name of the only SCA group ever located behind

the Iron Curtain (or in a Soviet-dominated area)?

A: The Shire of Perilous Journey (Berlin, Germany). It's 110 miles

from Berlin to the old intra-German border. (New groups forming in

Russia don't count - the wall came down in '89.)
Mikjal Annarbjorn

Former Perilous Journey Pursuivant


Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a%viking at of St. Vidicon"

Play: ab899 at

mchance at

From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)


Subject: Earl Edward Ean Anderson

Date: 11 May 1993 06:22:56 -0400

Organization: Nucleus BBS - Calgary, AB CANADA + 1 403 531-9353


Just a small correction to Berengaria's post.


Earl Edward Ean Anderson took the arrow through the right eye slot at

the "Clash of the Tetons"/"Chocolate Chip Cookie War"/"Salmon War"

in Salmon Idaho (June 1982) between An Tir and Atenveldt. The arrow

was an ordinary West/An Tir war blunt. The *problem* was the face

mesh, which had been purchased in Salmon at the last minute from a

hardware store, and which turned out to be much much weaker than it

appeared to casual inspection. End of casual inspections of mesh.

Edward was unhurt, but shaken, by the experience.


James Prescott (james at, (403) 282-0541

Thorvald Grimsson, OP, OL, OGGS, Baron of Montengarde, Yeoman

Royal Archer for Crown Principality of Avacal, Kingdom of An Tir

... and in Iceland 'tis the year of the White Christ 973 ...

From: mchance at (Michael Chance)

Subject: Re: Skraeling wives?, Persona and honesty, Norse in America

Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

Date: Mon, 17 May 93 18:16:56 GMT
Hossein Ali Qomi writes:
>I would truly like to understand why people are generally willing to

>characterize slipshod or intellecutally dishonest use of documentation

>to justify persona practices as "a disagreement over the rules" when

>they don't, by and large, treat false claims of peerage as the same

>kind of disagreement.
Ah, this is becoming a pet peeve of mine. It has to do with the

unfortunate choice of a name for the organization. one which I'm sure

Ms. Bradley regrets every time the argument is used.
We're the Society for _Creative_ Anachronism.
I can't begin to recall how many times the name has been used in an

argument to justify some gross historical inaccuracy. Anything can be

justified, just call it a "creative anachronism" (I've even seen this

used in A&S documentation).

Folks, the name came about because a park ranger needed a group name

to reserve the site for one of the first tourneys. Nobody had ever

thought about it before, and, with the park ranger waiting on the

other end of the phone, Marion Zimmer Bradley came up with "Society

for Creative Anachronism" off the top of her head under pressure

(remember, this was Berkely in '66-'67). To the utter despair of

many people, 'lo these many years later, the name stuck, and despite

the best intentions of the founders of the SCA, it's crippled us ever

Mikjal Annarbjorn


Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a%viking at of St. Vidicon"

Play: ab899 at

mchance at

From: icklinck at (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)

Subject: Re: Harold,Belts,Peers, Squir

Organization: University of Waterloo

Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 21:31:22 GMT
re: Poobah/Foobah:
Well, the story *I* heard, from a local of great experience (Though not, of

course as much as His Grace's) is that during the reign of King Merowald, he

was presented with a gift of belly-dancers. His response was "Hubba hubba!"

to which his Herald replied "No, Your Majesty, this is the Middle Ages, the

correct term is Hoobah Hoobah!"... since then the "official cheer" of the

Middle is "Hoobah!"

Dilestair fid dy hynt, ac ni rusia ddim rhagot!

Rhys ap Bledri

from Ealdormere, where we say "Wassail!"

(icklinck at

From: mcdaniel at (Tim McDaniel)

Subject: Hoobah

Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 20:49:51 GMT

Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA

A note from "Collected Brief History of the Middle Kingdom: Volumes I &

II: Cariadoc to Nathan", Orlando Ambrosius (Baron Daemon de Folo of

Wu:rm Wald, F. L. Watkins), Second Edition (A.S. 23 / 1989), p. 42.

It's from (as of 1989)

Folump Enterprises

805 East Green #1

Urbana, IL 61801
"At the first [Canton of] Three Hills [Kalamazoo, Mich.] event, held

that October [1971], Finnvarr was knighted. However, also at this

event, [Queen] Morna danced again ... Morgan ... and Morna had been

early missionaries for the exotic dancers guild; and through Duchess

Diana, it spread to Treegirtsea [Chicago, Ill.]. Finnvar notes in his

history of Iriel that 'It was in sardonic approbation of one of the

guild's better efforts that Iriel himself coined the phrase "Hoo-bah,"

which has since become the traditional plaudit of the Middle Kingdom.'"

[footnote: Steve Muhlberger, "The History of King Iriel of Brannokh."]
This account leaves unclear whether it was at this exact event that

"hoobah" was coined, but it's possible. Daemon mentions the guild

elsewhere (in re May 1971 Crown Tourney. "It is said that Cariadoc, who

affected a Moorish persona, got onto the floor himself." p. 34). If

"hoobah" wasn't coined at the October event, the story could just as

easily been put elsewhere.

Page 45 mentions Treegirtsea Twelfth Night, a bit later, where "Cariadoc

made a war arrow and gave it to Iriel, suggesting that Iriel return it

to Cariadoc to take with him 'as a token of war to the King of the East.

[When the Eastern King, Rakkurai, took the arrow,] 'he broke it, saying

"So will be do with the armies of the Middle" or words to that

effect,'[footnote: Letter from David Friedman, 2 July 1983] setting in

motion the wheels of war."
It's not clear from the account when Cariadoc moved to the East, but he

was obviously visiting very near the time of origination of "hoobah".

Perhaps it wasn't in general use yet.


Daniel of Lincoln, Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra

(Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation)

Internet: mcdaniel at, mcdaniel at

From: David Schroeder


Subject: Early Pennsic Sizes

Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:23:40 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Greetings good gentles --
I've been enjoying (well, sort of) this year's discussion of period

tents and space at Pennsic. I'm confident the Coopers can handle

_quite_ a few more campers (it would be easy enough to move _all_

the cars to a remote site and run the shuttle busses to them,

freeing up all the parking space for camping).
I'm also curious, for those people _with_ period tents, if they've

managed to figure out some way of "bug proofing" them. My lady is

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