Kgg-mp/1A/11. 00 The House met at eleven of the clock, mr. Chairman in the Chair obituary reference to justice V. R. KRISHNA IYER mr. Chairman

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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, yes. Now, the Minister, please.

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI): Sir, at the outset, through you, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have expressed their views, given their suggestions and some who have expressed concerns, vis-a-vis architecture and planning in our country. I am also extremely grateful that there is an air of consensus in this House with regard to how our students need to be given new opportunities in education and specially, how new knowledge needs to be developed.

Sir, I would beg your indulgence on one issue, which has been raised by a Member of Parliament from the State of Odisha, Shri Bhupinder Singh. He has made a suggestion here, saying why don’t we replace the hon. Visitor and have somebody else suggested, instead of the President of India, as the Head of the Institution. I humbly submit to you, Sir, that it has been my privilege and extreme honour that I serve under the guidance and leadership of Shri Pranab Mukherjee. He has taken a lot of pain in ensuring that quality education is imparted to our students. Hence, if there is any part of that suggestion which, in any way, gives this impression that we don’t appreciate his leadership or the stature of the President’s Office, I would request you, Sir, if the House accepts, to have such a suggestion expunged from the record.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay; I will go through the record to see if there is anything.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, here, I would also out-rightly reject Shri Bhupinder Singh’s charge that the East or the North-East has been ignored.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is not here.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, he is not here, but I would reject the charge nonetheless in his absence. I reject it because in the field of education, we have formulated, within IIT, Guwahati, a component called Ishanya Vikas, which helps us integrate children of the North-East, and specially, bright, meritorious young students, from Standard-IX onwards to our Engineering College students, and facilitate an all expenses paid-interface with all our IITs, NITs and Central Universities across the country.



SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (CONTD.): Hence, I dismiss that charge. But I am delighted to comment on what Shri Shantaram Naik said today. इन्होंने अपने शब्दों के तीरों को मखमल में लपेट कर मेरी ओर फेंका है और आज एक हाथ एग्री किया कि मैं अच्छा काम कर रही हूँ, जिसके लिए मैं आभार व्यक्त करती हूँ, लेकिन लेफ्ट हैंड से थोड़ी-सी चपेट भी मार दी और कहा कि एस्ट्रोलॉजर के पास न जाया जाए। मैं उन्हें कहना चाहती हूँ कि जब मेरा साइंटिफिक टेम्पर क्वैश्चन होता है, जो कानीमोझी जी ने भी क्वैश्चन किया और जब यह बताया जाता है कि संविधान में साइंटिफिक टेम्पर को अपहोल्ड करने की कहीं न कहीं हम सबकी फंडामेंटल ड्यूटी है, वही संविधान हमें इस बात का अधिकार भी देता है ...(व्यवधान)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Concerned Member is not present ...(Interruptions)...

श्रीमती स्मृति ज़ूबिन इरानी: सर, मैं फिर भी बोल दूं, अगर आपकी परमिशन हो। वही संविधान मुझे भी इस बात की फ्रीडम देता है कि मैं अपनी रेलिजियस फ्रीडम को एक्स्प्लोर कर सकती हूँ। मेरा आस्था का विषय कटघरे में नहीं आएगा। यह
भी संविधान सुरक्षित करता है। मैं साइंटिफिक टेम्पर, एज ए मिनिस्टर जब मेरे ऊपर आरोप लगता है, तो उन्हें बताना चाहूंगी ...(व्यवधान)...

श्री आनन्द शर्मा: नहीं, नहीं ...(व्यवधान)...

श्रीमती स्मृति ज़ूबिन इरानी: आपने शायद सुना नहीं, आनन्द जी शायद इसलिए समर्थन कर रहे हैं, क्योंकि उन्होंने छोटी उंगली में पन्ना पहना हुआ है। ...(व्यवधान).... I am not yielding. Let me also say that since he emphasises that it is not a personal attack, he reminds me of my duty as the HRD Minister of this country, and that I should uphold scientific temper. Let me highlight to him, through you, that my predecessor, in fact, waited as per astrological charts for that opportune moment to actually coming to office. ...(Interruptions)...


SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: I don't want to name. ...(Interruptions)... He is my predecessor. ...(Interruptions)... You can google it. ...(Interruptions)... Why am I saying this today? ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Actually ...(Interruptions)... One second. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Allow me. ...(Interruptions)... I would beg your indulgence. ...(Interruptions).. Allow me. ..(Interruptions)... यह मुझे नीचा दिखाने के लिए नहीं कहा गया, कहीं न कहीं एक उपहास का विषय था और जिसका मैं यहां पर उत्तर दे रही हूँ। लेकिन इस बिल के संदर्भ में कुछ गंभीर प्रश्न जो खड़े हुए हैं, उनकी ओर मैं आप सबका ध्यान आकर्षित करना चाहूंगी। ...(व्यवधान)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister, I would like to make one observation. Scientific temper doesn't mean that one should not have religious faith. A person having religious faith can certainly have scientific temper. ...(Interruptions)...

THE MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY (SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD): One thing more, Sir, on a serious note. Our constitutional scheme and the heritage of this country permit us to have that faith and also respect other's faith. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I fully agree. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: Don't mix it with faith. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री सतीश चन्द्र मिश्रा: सर, रवि शंकर जी जब इधर थे, तो वे रोज हम लोगों का हाथ देखा करते थे। ...(व्यवधान)...

श्री रवि शंकर प्रसाद: सर, मैं सतीश चन्द्र जी का बड़ा सम्मान करता हूँ, लेकिन आज तक मैंने सिर्फ उनकी बुद्धि देखी है, उनका हाथ नहीं देखा है। ...(व्यवधान)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Both are advocates. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI D. RAJA: Let us not mix religion and politics. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री उपसभापति: राजा जी, हम प्रजा हैं और वे दोनों एडवोकेट हैं, इसलिए हम लोग नहीं समझ पाएंगे। Hon. Minister, please continue.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, it is always a delight, Sir, to see my seniors engage in such conversation; it gladdens my heart. I would also like to address certain issues here that have been put forth by Members of Parliament. I would like to compliment Prof. Jogen Chowdhury who has given his maiden speech. He was extremely concerned about the aesthetic nature of architecture in our country. I would like to assure him, Sir, that the current curriculum which is being taught in the School of Planning and Architecture also gives importance to the aesthetic values not only from an urban perspective but also from a historical perspective and rural perspective. Sir, I would like to tell him that this concept of smart cities is not a misnomer or is not a fallacy. It is a reality that we are pursuing which seeks to give us better standards of living and better facilities and I am hoping that the students who pass out the School of Planning and Architecture can actually contribute to that development.

(Contd. by KSK/3X)

hk -- KSK/DS/5.40/3X

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (CONTD.): I would also like to compliment Vijilaji for such an enthusiastic speech. Ambeth Rajanji had certain concerns about the reservation policy. I would like to say and assure the House that the reservation policy vis-a-vis admission for students will be completely followed in the Schools of Planning and Architecture, as is seen in the IITs and the NITs. The reservation policy as mandated by an Act of Parliament in the IITs and NITs vis-a-vis recruitment is the same policy and the same approach which would be followed in the Schools of Planning and Architecture as well.

Sir, Shri Ritabrata Benerjee spoke about assimilation of ideas, history, culture and also explored various facets of architecture and old civilisations. I would like to again compliment him for his speech.

C.M. Rameshji was a bit worried about whether AICTE would intervene in the autonomous functioning of SPAs. Sir, let me tell him that once it attains status of Institution of National Importance, that particular kind of blessing from this House and this Parliament, only nomenclatures will be identified by our regulators. In terms of the functioning of the School of Planning and Architecture, there shall be no intervention by the regulators.

Sir, there was a concern expressed whether our traditional Indian architecture, architecture vis-a-vis how buildings are to be constructed to help those who have special needs, is a part of curriculum also and whether restoration is part of the curriculum. Sir, I would like to highlight here that yes, restoration, buildings and planning of towns from the perspective of those citizens who have special needs is a part of the curriculum and so is studying of Indian traditional architecture and planning.

Sir, there was a question raised as to whether this Council, which is sought to be set up under the School of Planning and Architecture, will also influence other institutions. This Council is being constituted only from a governance perspective of these three Schools as being established by law.

Sir, there was a concern expressed by hon. Member, Shri Rajeev Gowda, with regards to faculty and also having an interface between industry and faculty. Sir, through you, I would like to tell him that industry experts are being invited. We have made platforms available for them to be invited into our institutions so that our students can benefit by interactions with them. We are in the process of instituting a Council for higher education and industry collaboration in which the academic perspective of industry experts will also be taken cognisance of. Similarly, Sir, we are in the process of designing a global initiative of academic networks, wherein we seek to invite industry experts from across the world so that the best international practices and new knowledge can be shared with our institutions. The financial burden of it will be borne by the Government of India.

Sir, there has been an exhaustive deliberation on whether there is a social component to these institutions and how they can help us enhance, or possibly what is the impact of such institutions on those who are possibly facing challenging times in and around these institutions. We have constituted an Unnat Bharat Abhiyan wherein our IITs, NITs and Central Universities have been told and encouraged to take in villages surrounding those institutions so that there can be technology transfer and transfer of new knowledge. I would like to tell the hon. Member, through you, Sir, that after this Bill gets the blessings of this Parliament, we will ensure that the Unnat Bharat Abhiyan campaign even includes Schools of Planning and Architecture.

Shantaramji had one concern whether municipal laws and regulations and building code is being studied. I would like to tell him that it is the practice within these Institutions. He also asked whether people who have studied out of these institutions can work with regard to our civic bodies, or for that matter, State Governments. That is also something which is under way.

Sir, there has been a little bit of question raised with regards to how can we internationalise our standards in these institutions, or possibly, whether we are exploring such things. Before I end my intervention, I would also like to highlight, through you, to this entire House that international tie-ups which already exist include the Melbourne University, the University of Amsterdam, Norwegian University, University of Leeds, University of Michigan, University of Paris and University of Hamburg. So, there had been many international tie-ups already within these institutions, and I am sure, after they are given this kind of a mandate from this very Parliament, they will explore new possibilities and new horizons internationally.

I once again, through you, Sir, would like to thank all the Members of this august House who have supported this Bill. If there is any other clarification, I will clarify. (Ends)

(Followed by 3Y –GSP)


SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: Sir, I have a small clarification. In the curriculum for architecture, are you introducing or making it compulsory that every design which is made either for the buildings or for the cities should be disabled-friendly? A disabled-friendly plan should be a compulsory thing but it is not there in most of the buildings.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, I have just answered this question. I shall reiterate that it is a part of the curriculum. Building of buildings and planning of towns and villages from the disability perspective is there.

श्री के0सी0 त्यागी : सर, मैं बिल पर उस समय नहीं बोला था। मेरी जानकारी में आया है कि बी0जे0पी0 और कांग्रेस के साथियों के लिए वास्तुकला में एडमिशन मेन्डेटरी और कम्पलसरी कराया जा रहा है, ताकि वास्तु शास्त्र के हिसाब से ये परमानेंट सत्ता में रह सकें और वे विपक्ष में रह सकें।

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, I would like to clarify that there is no confusion. Firstly, my best wishes on his birthday. Entrance in these institutions will be through the Joint Entrance Exam as is done in the IITs.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr. Gowda. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI VIJILA SATHYANANTH: I need to clarify one thing. Sir, there is a need for giving protection from legal and professional liabilities. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, a number of foreign architects are practising in our country. How can we evolve a mutual exchange between the Indian architects and the foreign architects, and, how can we have coordination between the architecture education and the profession? How are we going to do this?

PROF. M. V. RAJEEV GOWDA: Sir, the Minister has emphasized on the industry linkages but faculty is prevented from actually going out for enhancing their practice. That needs to be changed.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, the Members of this House will agree that faculty has been brought into institution to teach, and, since many Members have expressed concerns that there are gaps in faculty recruitment, we would rather retain most of our faculty to teach our students. As I said, if there is a faculty member, who seeks to indulge in research, we are definitely supporting that kind of research. We have done that through the IITs and the NITs, and, I am sure that

we will do the same even in the Schools of Planning and Architecture.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The question is:

That the Bill to establish and declare Schools of Planning and Architecture as institutions of national importance in order to promote education and research in architectural studies including planning of human settlements, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.

The motion was adopted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill.

Clauses 2 and 3 were added to the Bill.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In clause 4, there is one Amendment No. (1) by Dr. Kanwar Deep Singh. Are you moving the amendment?

DR. KANWAR DEEP SINGH: Sir, please allow me to mention the reasons for moving my amendment. Sir, housing, malls and other business buildings are booming in the country, and, as such, good

planners and architects are required. At present, only three Schools of Planning and Architecture are there in a vast country like ours. The school at New Delhi caters to the students of north India, the school at Bhopal caters to the students of Central India, and, the school at Vijayawada caters to the students of South India. There is no school in Eastern and Western India.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, this is your amendment.

DR. KANWAR DEEP SINGH: Through this amendment, I want to have a School of Planning and Architecture in Kolkata because it is an important central place in Eastern India.


DR. KANWAR DEEP SINGH: Sir, give me one minute. Sir, it is a gateway to north-eastern States. If a school is set up here, the students of West Bengal, other eastern States and north-east will be benefited a lot. Hence, the school is absolutely necessary in Kolkata. I, therefore, urge upon the hon. Minister to accept my amendment or give an assurance to set up a school. If she gives me the assurance, then, I will reconsider.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. Minister, will you accept the amendment or will you give an assurance?

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, clause 32(2)(b) actually provides for the Council of School of Planning and Architecture to recommend to the Central Government, as and when the need arises, for establishment of Schools of Planning and Architecture. Under this autonomous function of the Council, I am sure, when the Council proposes the same, I shall happily accept the same.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. There is a provision for that. So, now, you are not pressing. In the Act itself, there is a provision that the Council can recommend it, and, the Minister is ready to accept the same at that point of time.

DR. KANWAR DEEP SINGH: Sir, I am happy with the Minister's assurance and answer, and, therefore, I am not moving my amendment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, amendment is not moved.

(Contd. by SK-3Z)


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put clause 4 to vote.

Clause 4 was added to the Bill.

Clauses 5 to 42 were added to the Bill.

The Schedule was added to the Bill.

Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.

That the Bill be passed.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, how many Bills in this Session have you got passed?

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, three Bills. I had the fortune of having three Bills passed. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: Sir, no more Bills from the HRD Ministry ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The HRD Minister has done a wonderful job. I think you should be congratulated for that. ..(Interruptions).. Now, I have one point to make. ..(Interruptions).. No, no. ..(Interruptions).. It is already 5.50 p.m. and we have Special Mentions. Therefore, I suggest ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Sir, we have given a notice. ..(Interruptions).. Sir, before the Special Mentions, I want to make a mention. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no; let me complete. I am saying something. Why don’t you listen to me? ..(Interruptions).. You listen to what I am going to say. ..(Interruptions).. Then, it may not be necessary for you to stand up.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: Sir, before the Special Mentions, I want to make a mention. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: For that, I will give you a chance. I am only saying that it is already 5.50 p.m. Only ten more minutes are left. There is one Bill listed in the Business. I would suggest, if the House agrees, we will defer it. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: No, no, Sir. ..(Interruptions).. Please allow me, Sir. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; we are not taking it up today. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: No, Sir..(Interruptions)..

DR. K.P. RAMALINGAM: It should be sent to the Select Committee. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Sir, please allow me. We have given a notice. We are going to move a motion.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, that is only when it is being taken up.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: No, Sir. This should be referred. Deferred means ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Agreed. It will be taken up tomorrow. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: If the Government is not bringing up the motion by tomorrow ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It can be taken up. ..(Interruptions).. I am not disagreeing with you. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: But why tomorrow? Why can't it be taken up today? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let me say. ..(Interruptions).. Anand Sharmaji, I am not questioning what you are saying. I am not disagreeing with you also. I am only saying that we will take it up tomorrow. ..(Interruptions).. The second point is, if there is an amendment ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Why tomorrow? ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: Why tomorrow? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have to say one more point in that case. If I take it up and if there is an amendment, if something comes as amendment, the amendment is also to be circulated. Isn’t it? ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: There is no amendment. ..(Interruptions).. It is a motion, Sir. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI D. RAJA: Sir, Members are asking to refer it to the Select Committee. That is the motion. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let me say. I have put a suggestion that we will take it up tomorrow. No problem. ..(Interruptions).. That is all what I am saying. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: Why tomorrow; why not today? ..(Interruptions).. We are sitting here for that only. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is because if there is an amendment ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA: There is no amendment.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: There is no amendment. ..(Interruptions).. Sir, allow me to have my say. ..(Interruptions).. Sir, allow me to have my say just for the benefit of all the Members. ..(Interruptions).. Please. ..(Interruptions).. Sir, it is not a question of amendment or discussion. First of all, we had objection to the manner in which it got listed, but without saying anything on that, the fundamental question is that this House has a practice that a new Bill, when it comes, is referred to a Committee. We would have been happy if it had been referred to a Standing Committee. Since it has not been referred to a Standing Committee, this has to be sent to a Select Committee. All of us have given notice to move a motion. This must go to the Select

Committee. A similar Repeal Bill is already before the Standing Committee. So, this House will constitute a Select Committee.

(Contd. by BHS/4A)


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