Kgg-mp/1A/11. 00 The House met at eleven of the clock, mr. Chairman in the Chair obituary reference to justice V. R. KRISHNA IYER mr. Chairman



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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now, Mr. Yechury.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, I have one question. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल : महोदय, सदन की और भी कार्यवाही है। एक बार पूछने के बाद इस पर मिनिस्टर का रिप्लाई भी हो गया। अब फिर और क्वेश्चन शुरू कर दिए। फिर तो इसमें हम भी पार्टिसिपेट करेंगे।........(व्यवधान)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is an important subject. ...(Interruptions)... This is a very important subject.

SHRI NARESH AGRAWAL: Sir, other important...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is an important subject. Don’t do that. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SUKHENDU SEKHAR ROY: Sir, I have a point of order. Should there be supplementary clarifications? I want a ruling from you. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is only doubt-asking. It is not put it in the form of clarifications; it is only doubt asking. The Minister will oblige. That is all.
(FOLLOWED BY HK/2Z)
HK-KLG/2Z/3.50

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (WEST BENGAL): Sir, through you, I only want to clarify to Mr. Sukhendu Roy and others that there is no further clarification. All that I am saying is, there are certain points on which we are not satisfied. We want to express that very clearly. When I mentioned the Ambassador at WTO making a statement and the Minister making a statement, I was fully aware that some time has passed and as time passes things change. We are grateful for being reminded of that knowledge or of that fact. But the point at issue is what? The point at issue is, if we agree to allow this discussion on this particular issue of Food Subsidies and Public Stockholdings for Food Subsidies for the poor to be delinked from the rest of the Agreement on Agriculture, the bargaining capacity, that we have to force the rest of the world on the WTO to accept what we are saying regarding our poor and the food security of our poor, reduces. What the Minister confirms is that 'Yes', we may agree to a final settlement on Agriculture but this negotiation will continue. That is what is my objection. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister says that there will be no compromise ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, that is my objection. Once you agree to a General Agreement on Agriculture, then your bargaining capacity on what you want to continue to talk about is lost. That is why the final peroration that was made about the BJP. I don't mind, whatever they want to say, they say. But, in this House, that is about the Government's commitment. Remember, according to our constitutional scheme of things, the only place where the Government is accountable is in the Parliament. So, therefore, we are here concerned with the Government's concern. If this contradiction remains, if we are allowed our bargaining capacity to be abandoned by saying we will agree on General Agreement on Agriculture, then that is not acceptable.

(Ends)


श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: माननीय उपसभापति जी, एक क्लैरिफिकेशन हम भी पूछ लेते हैं।

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How can you ask? You are opposing the clarifications. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: जब आप सबको एलाउ कर रहे हैं, तो हमें भी मौका दें। ..(व्यवधान)...

श्री उपसभापति: यह क्या बात हुई, you are opposing clarifications and you are asking a clarification. ...(Interruptions)... पूछिए, पूछिए।

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: महोदय, मुझे लगा ...(व्यवधान)... हम तो पहली बार पूछ रहे हैं।

श्री सीताराम चेयुरी: इनका सेकेंड राउंड अभी बाकी है। ...(व्यवधान)..

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: जब राजा को दो राउंड, तो प्रजा को भी दो राउंड। ...(व्यवधान)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This subject is very important. That is why a detailed discussion is allowed. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री के. सी. त्यागी: सर, एक राजा है, एक नरेश है, प्रजा तो इधर बैठी है। ...(व्यवधान)...

श्री उपसभापति: अच्छा, नरेश जी, आपको कुछ पूछना है?

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: जी, पूछना है।

श्री उपसभापति: अगर पूछना है, तो पूछो, नहीं तो बैठो।

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल: सर, मेरे हिसाब से जितने भी सब्जेक्ट साथ में लिए जा रहे हैं, सभी इम्पोर्टेंट हैं, खाली यह इम्पोर्टेंट नहीं है।

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I agree. You please stop. The Minister will reply. ...(Interruptions)... I take your point. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल (उत्तर प्रदेश): सर, हम तो पहली बार पूछ रहे हैं। मैं इतनी देर से आपका डिस्कशन सुन रहा था, क्योंकि इसमें मुझे बहुत ज्यादा ज्ञान नहीं है। माननीय मंत्री जी, मैं सिर्फ दो चीजें जानना चाहता हूँ। आप जो एग्रीमेंट करने जा रही हैं, आपने कहा कि 30 जून,2015 तक हमारा एग्रीमेंट फाइनल होगा, तो क्या उस एग्रीमेंट में दो चीजों की गारंटी होगी, एक तो इस देश में जो सब्सिडी किसानों को दी जा रही है, वह सब्सिडी लगातार चालू रहेगी या कहीं आप 30 जून तक उसमें झुकेंगे तो नहीं? दूसरा, किसान की उपज की मार्केटिंग की क्या व्यवस्था करेंगे? आपने बैठकर पूरे वर्ल्ड में संधि की है, तो पूरे विश्व में किसान की उपज बेचने की जिम्मेदारी करीब-करीब सभी राष्ट्रों में गवर्नमेंट के हाथों में है। तो क्या इस एग्रीमेंट के बाद इस देश के किसानों की उपज का मूल्य दिलाने की जिम्मेदारी सरकार की होगी या नहीं? (समाप्त)

श्री के. सी. त्यागी (बिहार): सर, एक क्लैरिफिकेशन मुझे भी पूछना है। पिछले दिनों मुझे हैदराबाद जाने का ...(व्यवधान)... सर, कॉटन के दाम देश के अंदर इतने ज्यादा गिर गए हैं कि नागपुर से लेकर हैदराबाद तक किसानों के सुसाइड करने की खबर आई है। मेरा निवेदन है ...(व्यवधान)... सर, बासमती चावल इस बार बाहर नहीं भेज पाएंगे, अगर कृषि के क्षेत्र में इस तरह का लगा रहा।

(3/आरपीएम-केएसके पर जारी)

hk/klg -- KSK/RPM/3.55/3A

श्री के.सी. त्यागी (क्रमागत) :आप जो कह रहे हैं... (व्यवधान)...

श्री उपसभापति: त्यागी जी आप दूसरा पाइंट पूछिए। ...(व्यवधान) ...

श्री के.सी. त्यागी : सर, मैं खत्म कर रहा हूं। बाली के अंदर भी जो टी.एफ.. के लिए दबाव था, उसमें मैं यह कहना चाहता हूं कि एग्रीकल्चरल डैवलपमेंट के जो कोर इश्यूज थे, वे आगे के लिए छोड़ दिए गए थे, तो जब भी कभी आपकी मीटिंग होगी ...(व्यवधान)... मेरा आपसे सिर्फ इतना निवेदन है ...(व्यवधान)... आधा सैकिंड ...(व्यवधान)... सर, श्री जयराम रमेश जी बैठे हुए हैं, कल श्री प्रकाश जावडेकर जी ने बाकायदा एनवायरनमेंट को लेकर, इनकी बड़ी आलोचना की। इसलिए मेरा मंत्री महोदया से यह कहना है कि जब आप हिन्दुस्तान को रिप्रेजेंट करती हैं, या तो हमारी कंसेंसस बन जाए ...(व्यवधान)... मैं आज पढ़ रहा था कि जयराम रमेश जी के टाइम में कानपुर में यह हो गया, फलां जगह यह हो गया ...(व्यवधान)... तो इस तरह का एटीट्यूड हमारे मंत्रियों का न हो। जो बाहर जाएं, वे हिन्दुस्तान की spirit को लेकर जाएं।

(समाप्त)



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is a valid point. There should be a consensus on all these issues. Yes, Minister, whatever you want, you can answer.

THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF COMMERCE AND INDUSTRY (SHRIMATI NIRMALA SITHARAMAN): Sir, I just want to give a bit of clarification. Regarding the points raised by my predecessor, I just want to say that what he has read out is correct in so far as it is the Chairman’s statement which was made. He is quoting from the Chairman’s statement of 27th November which does not have the value of force of the General Council’s decision. He comes and says it, but then the General Council’s decision is what I have read. So, what has legal sanctity is this statement where it says, “It decides that”? Therefore, I am playing on that word. I just want to make sure that they are not the same. That is just a statement. Then, the statement of DG, WTO, says that it is clarifying the matter. Therefore, it is only a clarification; it is not a dual decision. I just want to say that the clarification given by the DG, WTO, was in a Press conference, and again, it is not the decision of the WTO; it was a Press conference where words can be used. I am not questioning what he said, but it is not the GC’s decision, which is what I have read out here.

Then, Yechuryji talked about permanent solution, Ambassador’s statement and that time has passed. Sir, time has passed and I brought in that line here because in June, the position was that we would not go ahead with the consensus reached as per Bali 2013 and that if there is a change in the priority by giving the permanent solution and Peace Clause a pramukhyata, that is when we would want to consider. ...(Interruptions)... Can I finish?



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You finish what you have to say.

SHRIMATI NIRMALA SITHARAMAN: Then, it is the ‘Government of India’ that I have added here. Let me underline that. On telling us, “Oh no, it is the Government of India and not the BJP”, I would like to say that I certainly added that. After having said, ‘BJP’, I said, ‘and the Government of India’. So, let me just draw the attention of the hon. Member that I have not ignored saying ‘Government of India’ here.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: The Government of India is not an addition to BJP.

SHRIMATI NIRMALA SITHARAMAN: So, that is one thing to which I would like to draw the hon. Member’s attention. As regards cotton and other things, they are decisions which are very much being taken by the Government of India now, and as regards WTO’s negotiations and about food security, I probably think that it is not directly linked to this clarification, but that is a different issue.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But that is an important suggestion.

SHRIMATI NIRMALA SITHARAMAN: Yes, it is important and I know the Ministers were all called on an urgent meeting about two or three weeks ago, about which the Agriculture Minister, Shri Radha Mohan Singh, came and gave a statement here. So, that may not be for me to talk about it in this context.

(Ends)


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, let us go to the next item of the Business, that is, the School of Planning and Architecture Bill, 2014.
THE SCHOOL OF PLANNING AND ARCHITECTURE BILL, 2014

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI): Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill to establish and declare Schools of Planning and Architecture as Institutions of National Importance in order to promote education and research in architectural studies including planning of human settlements, as passed by Lok

Sabha, be taken into consideration.

Sir, it is said that planning is to bring the future into the present so that you can do something about it now, but this Bill seeks to address certain challenges that are past, as presented before our students.



(Contd. by 3B – GSP)

GSP-MP-4.00-3B

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (CONTD.): I am sure that the esteemed Members of the House are aware that the Schools of Planning and Architecture were established in Bhopal and Vijayawada in 2008. However, they did not have the power to grant degrees. The first School of Planning and Architecture was established in Delhi in 1959 and because it was conferred the Deemed-To-Be-University in 1979 ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. Let her finish. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: ...that institution does not have the challenge... (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please move the Bill. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Just one minute, Sir. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Anand ji, I am finishing. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let her move the Bill.

SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI: Sir, through you, I will implore to the Members of this august House कि लोकतंत्र के मंदिर से विद्या और सरस्वती का आशीर्वाद आप छात्रों को दें, आज यही निवेदन सबके समक्ष मैं प्रस्तुत करती हूं।

(समाप्त)



The question was proposed.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, Shri Shantaram Naik. ... (Interruptions)... No, no. Please.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Sir, I have to say something before we take it up. This morning, this issue was raised by many of my colleagues. It is with regard to the agenda, and, particularly, the Bill which...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. I have taken up this Bill.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: Sir, just one minute. Members want that the motion for referring the second Bill... (Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please talk about that when the second Bill comes up. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल : अभी नहीं हो सकता है...अभी नहीं हो सकता है।

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The point is that you can raise that when the second Bill comes up.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: We request you to change the order.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. ...(Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल : कैसे कर लेंगे? यह संभव नहीं है। ...(व्यवधान)... यह संभव नहीं है।

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yechury ji, ...(Interruptions)... No, no. Please. There is no dispute regarding this Bill. The BAC has allotted time. If at all you wish to raise an issue regarding the second Bill, that should be done after finishing this Bill. Now, the Bill is moved. Mr. Shantaram Naik, kindly speak.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, it was only a request that after this Bill is over... ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: After this Bill, you can do that. ... (Interruptions)...

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल : ये लोग बैठें तो सही! सब जाने की जल्दी में हैं। ...(व्यवधान)...

श्री उपसभापति : हां, सब लोग बैठें और उस समय इसे raise करें। Mr. Shantaram Naik, please start.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN, DR. SATYANARAYANA JATIYA, in the Chair.)

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (GOA): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, at the outset, while appreciating the role of the hon. HRD Minister, I would like to say that in spite of the educational qualification of hers being challenged at various forums from time to time -- and, I have been telling this to my friends also -- you are performing well and you are a capable Minister. I tell this to everybody, and, I want to place it on record. But I am pained to see you going to an astrologer because you are the custodian of the entire scientific temper, which has been inscribed in the Constitution of India. You have to carry that scientific temper amongst the students, amongst the children and amongst the society. Therefore, you do not have a private life as far as this aspect is concerned, and, therefore, I am a little pained that you visited an astrologer.

Now, in the context of this Bill, what are you going to advise? I would like to know the decision on whether you should buy a plot or you should not buy a plot; whether you should buy a flat or you should not buy a flat, has to be taken by the institution with respect to various aspects that they are entitled to. What are you going to tell them? Will they go to a fortune teller and find out? I am saying this with all seriousness because the message that you have given is not commensurate with the role that you have got under the Constitution and as a Minister. Kindly do some introspection.



उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा. सत्यनारायण जटिया): आप विषय पर आइए। Please come to the subject. ...(Interruptions)... आप विषय पर आइए।

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: Is the 'Constitution' not a subject, Sir? You are governing from there and you are sitting there under the Constitution. You are sitting there under the Constitution. If the Constitution is not there, you also have no right to sit there, Sir.

(Contd. by SK-3C)


SK-SC/3C/4.05

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (CONTD.): Now, the question is ..(Interruptions)..

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा0 सत्यनारायण जटिया) : आप इस तरह से बात न करें।

श्री शान्ताराम नायक : मैं इसी तरह से बात करूंगा, जैसा मैंने सोचा है। आपको आक्षेप लगता है तो आप रूलिंग दे दें।

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा0 सत्यनारायण जटिया) : जो विषय है, आप उस पर चर्चा नहीं कर रहे हैं।

श्री शान्ताराम नायक : आप रूलिंग दे सकते हैं कि मैंने जो कहा, वह गलत कहा है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा0 सत्यनारायण जटिया) : मैं कह रहा हूं कि आप सब्जेक्ट पर आइए।

श्री शान्ताराम नायक : इसका मतलब है कि मैं सब्जेक्ट पर नहीं बोल रहा हूं!

श्री आनन्द शर्मा : उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, सदस्य जो बोल रहा है, उस पर चेयर यह नहीं कह सकती कि उसको क्या कहना है। माननीय सदस्य विषय पर ही बोल रहे हैं, उस बिल पर ही बोल रहे हैं इसलिए यह नहीं होना चाहिए। इस सदन की यह परम्परा नहीं है। मेरा आपसे निवेदन है कि आप नयी परम्परा न डालें।

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा0 सत्यनारायण जटिया) : मैंने आपकी बात को ध्यान से समझा है और मैं यह कह रहा हूं कि यह आपका समय है और आप जैसे चाहें, वैसे इसका उपयोग कर सकते हैं, लेकिन मैंने यह कहा है कि यह तकनीकी विषय है, आप उस पर आएंगे तो ज्यादा अच्छा होगा, वह बेहतर होगा। नायक जी, आप अपनी बात शुरू करें।

SHRI SUKHENDU SEKHAR ROY: Sir, I would like to supplement him. What Mr. Shantaram is trying to impress upon is the fundamental duty of every citizen to maintain scientific temper, which is under Article 51A (h) of the Constitution.

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा0 सत्यनारायण जटिया): मेरा कहना यह है कि व्यक्तिगत रूप से जो कुछ भी बाहर कहा गया होगा, उस पर आपको यह भूमिका बनाकर बात नहीं करनी चाहिए।

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: It being the School of Planning and Architecture Bill, 2014, I would like to say I fully support this Bill and various things which are involved in this. Now, since the new concept of smart cities has come in from the new Government, is this school going to play any role as far as construction of smart cities is concerned? Will a study be conducted and inputs be taken from this school for the purpose of establishing smart cities in various parts of the country? If so, what will be the conception? Have you approached this School or any other body in the country so far for the purpose of erecting or constructing smart cities because it is this School which has to guide the nation as far as planning is concerned? Again, I would like to say that this School will be a part of entire education system. Education system of the country is likely to be changed, as you have already stated. You have given an answer to me in this House that the new education policy is going to be evolved. But, at the same time, you have said that no committee has been constituted. All these months have passed, it is such an important aspect of education, and you have not formed any committee. What is the thing which is stopping you? Do you want to go in a particular direction which is not acceptable to the secular country and, therefore, you are going slow so that there should not be criticism? Who are the persons entrusted with preparing the initial draft or guidelines for the purpose of evolving a new education policy? What is the direction that you have given? The country would like to know about this.

Secondly, as and when education policy is evolved ..(Interruptions).. Please don’t disturb the Minister.

Since this education policy will cover the entire country and the subject is a State subject, how are you going to, I won't say impose, convince the State Governments to follow the new policy which you are going to evolve? It will be a very difficult task for you, Madam, because the inputs which will be contained in the new education policy, to my mind, will be dangerous and you will not be able to convince the State Governments to implement that policy.

(Contd. by BHS/3D)

BHS-GS/3D/4.10

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