Kgg-mp/1A/11. 00 The House met at eleven of the clock, mr. Chairman in the Chair obituary reference to justice V. R. KRISHNA IYER mr. Chairman



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SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (CONTD.): Secondly, I would like to know which are the legislations that will have to be amended in order to impose that policy in various States. Have you got any plans to take these new schools to prepare standard plans, I would say guideline plans, for the construction of schools, for primary schools, toilets for the schools, community halls etc.? It is because these structures will be required by everybody. Even under MPLADS, we will be requiring it. Are you going to advise the schools to prepare standard plans, which can be used by various other institutions, including MPs for the purpose of implementing in the MPLADS?

Then, the new concept of ‘green houses’ is coming all over the country. People are going in for that. Some people say that ‘green houses’ concept is costly but you have to find out a solution to see that green houses are adopted more and more by people and those houses can be built at moderate rates.

My next point is regarding heritage buildings. I do not know whether existing schools are doing some exercise as far as heritage buildings are concerned but it is very much required that these school authorities, school management and administrative bodies try to see that heritage concept grows in this country. These engineers, who are studying there, can go to places for this purpose. Another aspect is this. As far as whole planning is concerned, the rules governing the construction of houses are very important, and also the rules governing the planning of the cities. Today, these rules differ from State to State. There is no uniformity. In some other States, they also add that National Building Code should be observed in the construction rules. Now, a State is having an Act governing construction, rules governing construction and if they are made to observe National Building Code, I do not know whether they will get a licence. Modiji has said that ‘in my Government, there will be only two layers. No seven or eight layers but two layers’. How is he going to bring two-layer system or three-layer system in the country as far as this construction licence is concerned? We would like to know this because to have minimum steps of layers, as far as building is concerned, is very, very difficult.

Then, again, related to what I said earlier, Madam, since this involves planning schools, what are you going to advise them regarding Vaastu in the context of scientific temper? Are you going to advise them that this aspect of Vaastu should also be observed? It is because I know that some aspects of Vaastu are scientific; where air comes, light comes; that is also there. But, if you carry forward the concept of Vaastu too much, it crosses the limit and it becomes a superstition. People are scared. People demolish their houses after houses are constructed, if a Vaastu expert has told them that this is not good. I was told by one person that there was a quarrel in a family. The Vaastu expert came and that expert said that because your kitchen is in this direction, there is a quarrel in your house. So, these are the things which are to be seen in the context of Vaastu.

Then, Madam, my next point is regarding Clause 32 of this Bill, which provides for a tribunal for arbitration. Earlier, you have withdrawn one Bill regarding tribunals where teachers’ problems are to be solved etc. Maybe, you are introducing another Bill with the improved version. What about this Clause regarding tribunals of arbitration to solve the dispute among the students or management, whatever it is?

(Contd. by YSR/3E/4.15)



-BHS/YSR-ASC/4.15/3E

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK (CONTD.): I would like to tell you that I made this argument during our regime also. I have got a problem with the Tribunal. Although it says that the decisions given by the Tribunal will be final, no High Court is going to listen to you. They will say that they will exercise their right under Article 226. Nothing can stop them. The Supreme Court will say that it will exercise its right under Article 32. Tribunals only become one additional forum for the purpose of litigation. Article 32 will remain there. Article 226 will also remain there. You have to find out the fate of such tribunals.

Madam, I, therefore, urge upon you to take it up, as and when it becomes a law, in the right spirit for the overall development of the country. Thank you very much, Sir.

(Ends)

DR. C.P. THAKUR (BIHAR): Sir, I rise to support this Bill. This is a very important Bill for the country because three institutions are going to be upgraded to the level of institutions of national importance. The School of Planning and Architecture at New Delhi was given deemed university status, but the other two institutions were not given this status. This Bill is very important and urgent, so that the graduates of other two institutions may get degree. That is one important part of this Bill.

Sir, after upgrading other two institutions, they will also become deemed universities and then all the three institutions will become institutions of national importance. That is the importance of this Bill.

My friend raised some questions relating to planning of smart cities which is a dream project of our Prime Minister. All these things will be taken care of. These institutions will be of very high standard. Their standard can compete with the standard of any institution in any part of the world. I think all the points will be considered in the project of these institutions. As it is a deemed university and an institution of national importance, there will be a Governing Body, a Senate and all the regulations as the NIT, the ITI, etc., have.

So far as planning and architecture are concerned, this is a very important Bill. When a Government slightly matures or achieves something, it goes for architecture because it wants good architecture. When people come to Delhi to see the Parliament, they admire it. Wherever I go, people say that the Parliament is so good. It was planned by some architect. India is growing as a big nation. You have to plan for everything, not just living conditions or buildings. There are many things. In this institution, teaching will be imparted both at the undergraduate level and at the post-graduate level.

The institutions at Bhopal and at Vijayawada will get the power to give degrees. They are not giving degrees to their students. That power will also be provided to them after the passing of the Bill. These three institutions will certainly become assets for the country. The institution at Delhi will cover the north; the institution at Bhopal will cover the centre; and the institution at Vijayawada will cover the south. The excellence of these institutions will be provided to the whole country.

The hon. Minister has done a very good job by bringing this Bill. It was required. Certainly, it will fulfil the dream of our Prime Minister also in designing smart cities and many things for this country. Therefore, I support this Bill.

Sir, before I conclude, I would like to say that even at the time of Pandavas and Kauravas, this aspect of learning was very much in use.

(Contd. by VKK/3F)



-YSR/VKK-LP/3F/4.20

DR. C.P. THAKUR (CONTD.): They made a lakshagraha. Nobody could differentiate whether it was a normal house or a house made of wax. In Mughal period and many other periods, there was good architecture. We are also in a maturing state of democracy and we need certain good quality architect and, therefore, I again congratulate the Minister for bringing forward this Bill. It is a very good Bill and it should be supported. (Ends)

उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा. सत्यनारायण जटिया) : धन्यवाद, श्री नरेश अग्रवाल।

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल (उत्तर प्रदेश) : धन्यवाद सर, मैं तो खुद आश्चर्यचकित हूं कि इन बिलों को पहले क्यों नहीं लाया गया। इसके पहले आप ट्रिपल आईटी लाई थीं, सैंट्रल यूनिवर्सिटी का बिल आया, आज Architecture वाला बिल आया है। यह बिल देश की तरक्की के लिए है। अगर इस बिल के न लाने से वहाँ के छात्रों को इतने सालों तक डिग्री नहीं मिली, अगर इस बिल के न लाने से उसका ग्रेडेशन ऊँचा नहीं हुआ था, तो आपने उसकी पनिशमेंट किसको दी? आखिर वे लोग भी तो पनिश होने चाहिए, जिन्होंने छात्रों के जीवन के साथ खिलवाड़ किया, जिन्होंने उसको अपग्रेड नहीं होने दिया, उनको वे सुविधाएं नहीं मिलने दीं और तीन-तीन, चार-चार सालों से छात्र वेट कर रहे हैं कि हमको डिग्री मिल जाए। छात्रों के जीवन से खिलवाड़ करने वाले जो भी लोग हों, माननीय मंत्री जी आप उनके ऊपर जरूर ऐक्शन लीजिए। आप क्या ऐक्शन लेंगी, यदि इसको बता देंगी तो समझ लीजिए कि आपको कहीं न कहीं इससे popularity मिलेगी और लोगों का वाकई में हित होगा। यह ठीक है कि आप इन तीनों को अपग्रेड करेंगी, हमारे देश में Architecture के और भी इंस्टीट्यूशन्स हैं, लेकिन अभी हमारी वर्ल्डवाइड स्थिति बहुत अच्छी नहीं है। जब ताजमहल बना होगा, तब Architect नहीं थे, उनको डिग्री नहीं मिली हुई थी, लेकिन उन्होंने 1600 में ताजमहल बनाया था, वह आज भी है। हमारे देश में तमाम क़िले बने हुए हैं, क्या वे Architect द्वारा बने हुए हैं? क्या उन्हें डिग्री मिली थी? हम लोग विदेश में जाते हैं तो वहाँ Architecture इतना डेवलप हो गया है कि कुछ कह नहीं सकते। अमरीका वगैरह छोड़ दीजिए, आप डेवलपिंग कंट्रीज सिंगापुर, हांगकांग वगैरह में चले जाइए, वहाँ पर जो Architecture के डिजाइन हैं, उन्हें देखकर तो लगता है कि वे हिंदुस्तान में हैं ही नहीं। अब तो हिंदुस्तान में हम अच्छी डिजाइनिंग के लिए बाहर से Architect ला रहे हैं। आखिर क्या कारण है? मैंने पिछली बार भी कहा था कि हमारा दुर्भाग्य है कि हिंदुस्तान में इतनी यूनिवर्सिटीज़ होने के बाद भी, इतने कॉलेज होने के बाद भी आज विश्व स्तर के किसी कॉलेज में हमारा नाम नहीं है। विश्व स्तर पर हमारा कहीं नाम नहीं है, हमारी recognition नहीं है और बहुत जगहों पर तो हमारी डिग्रियों को मान्यता प्राप्त नहीं है। हम इनको अपग्रेड करें, उस स्तर पर खड़ा करें। अभी भाई ठाकुर जी कह रहे थे कि प्रधान मंत्री स्मार्ट सिटी बनाएंगे, 100 स्मार्ट सिटी, उसका Architect कौन होगा, यह भी तय हो जाए, अत: आप Architect देखिए। जब अच्छा Architect लाना पड़ेगा, तो आप जापान से लाएंगे, अमरीका, लंदन या और कहीं से भी Architect लाएंगे, आपको हिंदुस्तान का कोई Architect नहीं मिलेगा। आज, जब कि लैंड कम हो रही है, तब Architect की ज्यादा जरूरत है, जिससे कि कम जमीन पर, कम जगह पर अच्छी चीज़ बने। मैं चाहूंगा कि आप इसको खाली अपग्रेड करके डीम्ड यूनिवर्सिटी का दर्ज़ा दे दें, इससे यह मतलब नहीं होगा कि यह अपने आप में एकदम बहुत फाइन हो गया। जब तक वहाँ योग्यता नहीं दे देते हैं, तब तक खाली दर्ज़ा या डिग्री देने से कुछ नहीं हो सकता है। मैंने आपसे कई बार ओरली भी कहा था कि हो सकता है कि डीम्ड यूनिवर्सिटी पर किसी मंत्री ने कुछ गलतियाँ की हों, लेकिन उसका यह मतलब नहीं है कि उसकी सजा हरदम के लिए हो जाए। माननीय सर्वोच्च न्यायालय ने एक रोक लगाई, परंतु आज ऐसा क्यों हो रहा है कि सरकारें सिर्फ न्यायालय के आदेश पर चल रही हैं, वे अपने jurisdiction में निर्णय क्यों नहीं ले रही हैं? एक प्रथा ऐसी हो गई है कि न्यायालय जो आदेश दे दे, हम उसका पालन करें, लेकिन हम अपने विवेक से निर्णय नहीं लेंगे। आज प्राइवेट colleges, जिन्होंने कंप्यूटर एजुकेशन के एरिया में इतना डेवलप किया, आप उनको तमाम यूनिवर्सिटीज़ से एफिलिएट तो कर देतीं हैं, लेकिन हर यूनिवर्सिटी की अपनी अलग गाइडलाइन्स हैं, उन गाइडलाइन्स के साथ उनको कितना हैरेस किया जाता है, आप समझ सकती हैं। लेकिन जब वही एक डीम्ड यूनिवर्सिटी बन जाती है, तो उसको कम से कम उन यूनिवर्सिटीज़ के ऐसे क्राइटेरिया से छुटकारा मिल जाता है, जिन्होंने एक मकड़जाल फैला रखा है। अगर हमारे वेस्टर्न यूपी में कोई कॉलेज खोलेगा तो उसे मेरठ यूनिवर्सिटी से recognition लेनी पड़ेगी।

(3g/sch पर जारी)



KR/SCH/3G/4.25

श्री नरेश अग्रवाल (क्रमागत) : कहीं आगरा यूनिवर्सिटी से recognition लेनी पड़ेगी, कहीं लखनऊ यूनिवर्सिटी से लेनी पड़ेगी, चूंकि ये डीम्ड यूनिवर्सिटीज़ हैं, इसलिए उनके सामने मजबूरी है कि किसी न किसी यूनिवर्सिटी से उनको recognition लेनी ही पड़ेगी। यूनिवर्सिटीज़ के मक्कड़जाल में आज कितना करप्शन है और एजुकेशन की कितनी बुरी स्थिति है, इसलिए, स्मृति जी, मैं चाहूंगा कि कहीं न कहीं आप इस स्थिति से इसे बाहर निकालिए। अब आप यह मत कहिएगा कि पैसा नहीं है अथवा यह नहीं है, वह नहीं है। हमारे पास इतना बड़ा बजट है, इतना पैसा है और उसके बाद भी हम यह कहें कि पैसा नहीं है!

आजकल एक नई चीज़ और शुरू हो गई है। जब हम प्लेन में जाते हैं, तो बहुत सी पत्रिकाएं देखने को मिलती हैं, जैसे India Today, Outlook, Business Standard. इन पत्रिकाओं में वे तमाम कॉलेजों का ग्रेडेशन करने लगे हैं कि नॉर्थ इंडिया में कौन सा कॉलेज नम्बर-1 पर है, देश में कौन सा कॉलेज नम्बर-1 पर है, विदेश में कौन सा कॉलेज नम्बर-1 पर है, नॉर्थ-ईस्ट में कौन सा कॉलेज नम्बर-1 पर है। स्मृति जी, क्या इस तरह ग्रेडेशन करने का कोई क्राइटीरिया है? जो कॉलेज advertisement के लिए इनको जितना ज्यादा पैसा दे दे, जो कॉलेज इनको जितना ज्यादा फायदा पहुंचा दे, उस कॉलेज का ग्रेडेशन उतना ऊँचा हो जाता है। यह तो बिल्कुल सीधे-सीधे छात्रों के साथ छल है। जिसने इन मैगज़ीन्स में अपने को ग्रेडेशन में जितना ऊँचा कर लिया, उस कॉलेज में उतने ही ज्यादा बच्चे जाने लगेंगे। इस देश में यह कैसी बात हो गई है?

अब तो यह हो रहा है कि मीडिया और ज्यूडीशियरी, यही दोनों मिलकर सारी सरकारों को चलाने लगे हैं। हम सब तो आज एक निर्बल की, असहाय की स्थिति में खड़े हो गए हैं। ऐसा लग रहा है कि अब हम कोई निर्णय ही नहीं ले पाएंगे, कोई ऐक्शन नहीं ले पाएंगे। ये चीज़ें बहुत अच्छी नहीं होती हैं। प्रजातंत्र में, डेमोक्रसी में जनता को मज़बूत किया गया है और जनता को सर्वोच्च कहा गया है। डेमोक्रेसी में जनता का और जनता के द्वारा शासन रहता है। डेमोक्रेसी के, प्रजातंत्र के चार स्तम्भ होते हैं, लेकिन अगर उनमें से कोई सबसे मज़बूत स्तम्भ है, तो वह यह सदन है, यह सरकार है। सरकार और सदन ही अगर अपने को कमजोर समझने लगेंगे, तो वह अच्छा नहीं होगा।

मेरा आपसे सिर्फ इतना अनुरोध है, चूंकि यह कोई बहुत भारी विषय नहीं है ...(व्यवधान)... वह मैं आपको अलग से बता दूंगा। हम दोनों बहुत पुराने साथी हैं।

स्मृति जी, मैं आपसे कहना चाहूंगा, ठीक है, आप यह बिल ला रही हैं और हम सब इसका समर्थन कर रहे हैं। इसका समर्थन हम इसलिए कर रहे हैं, क्योंकि यह देश के हित में है, छात्रों के हित में है। हम भी चाहते हैं कि हमारे देश का एजुकेशनल स्टैंडर्ड बढ़े, अच्छे छात्र निकलें। पिछली बार भी हमने एक बात कही थी कि आज छात्रों का जो विदेशों की ओर पलायन हो रहा है, उसे जरूर रोक दीजिएगा और आरक्षण की श्रेणी खत्म मत करिएगा। ऐसा न हो अपग्रेडेशन के नाम पर आरक्षण को समाप्त ही कर दिया जाए।



इतना कहते हुए मैं अपनी बात समाप्त करूंगा। मैंने अभी जो बातें कही हैं, यदि इन बिन्दुओं पर ध्यान देते हुए आप कुछ जवाब देने की कृपा करेंगी, तो मैं अनुगृहीत होऊँगा। मुझे विश्वास है कि कहीं न कहीं यह मील का पत्थर जरूर साबित होगा। धन्यवाद।

(समाप्त)



उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा. सत्यनारायण जटिया) : "अनुगृहीतो अस्मि"। आपके भाषण के लिए धन्यवाद।

PROF. JOGEN CHOWDHURY (WEST BENGAL): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I have been a Member of this House for about six months now. I have been patiently waiting for the right subject to deliver my maiden speech. Art is my passion and my profession.

Every Artist has a dream of having his painting displayed in the Museum in Paris. Every Indian citizen has a dream to be in this famous House of Parliament. Even though I am not a politician, I am grateful that I have been given the opportunity to come to Rajya Sabha. Amar Dhonnobadh to Mamati Manusha of Bengal, Amar Dhonnobadh to Mamata Banerjee who believes that people from different walks of life must be given a chance to express themselves here.

I welcome this legislation. I consider architecture is an important function for our lives and society. Good architecture makes a good city, town or a village or human settlements. It is instrumental in designing better living conditions and quality of lives of our people. It creates a good environment and makes us happy. Aesthetic beauty of architecture is a joy forever.

The present Bill which has been approved and passed by the Lok Sabha is mainly dealing with various technical and administrative matters.

(Continued by 3H/KS)

KS/3H/4.30

PROF. JOGEN CHOWDHURY (contd.): Administrative or technical matters apart, my main concern is architecture and teaching of architecture. This could be useful not only for the city people but also for a large number of people of this country who live in semi-urban and rural areas.

I would like to recall how important architecture was during the time of the great Greek, Roman and Renaissance periods, or even the time of the Egyptian Civilisation. In fact, art, architecture and design, all these three forms of art, were the basic components of those great civilizations. In the Renaissance Period, artists like Michelangelo or Leonardo Da Vinci, besides being great painters and sculptors, were also very well-qualified architects and designers.

Architecture of Egyptian cities on the banks of the Nile, or the architecture in Rome, Florence, Venice or Paris in the West, or our own Sanchi Stupa, Konark, Fatehpur Sikri, or our small-town traditional architectures like the wooden houses of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, or even in Bengal villages, were aesthetically great and extraordinarily beautiful. We could in fact, find beautiful village-architecture all over India in early times. China, Japan, Bhutan and Bali also have beautiful architecture. The Kings of Rajasthan created beautiful cities, palaces and forts. Even the Moghuls were great architects. We also have the planned city of New Delhi by Lutyens & Baker.

In recent times, institutions of planning and architecture are producing many architects every year. There are many good architects. They are also doing excellent work. But their activities are mainly centred in big cities and they construct buildings, apartments, hotels, etc., which are mostly for commercial purpose. In place of Maharajas or Kings, now the patrons are businessmen. There are many contemporary architects who make buildings without any character and aesthetic beauty, sometimes just following Western or foreign architecture. They also make good earnings out of their profession.

The most alarming and the worst situation is prevailing in the case of semi-urban townships and villages all over India. Small or large semi-urban townships are haphazardly growing and have no proper plan and design. Once beautiful traditional villages with 'baroghor aikuthon' where there was one planned courtyard with twelve homes, one temple or a Masjid, a community hall -- we call it 'archala' in Bengali -- are all transforming now into ugly-shaped haphazard constructions of rectangular-shaped brick structures as homes. They have no plan and aesthetic charm. The whole village has no proper planning. In fact, many of the villages due to development and economic growth are eager to make brick and concrete houses. But they have no plan. I understand that there is no Government plan yet to take appropriate action in this matter and save the traditionally beautiful hutments of rural India with new ideas, design and architectural planning.

I think it is most urgent for the Government to come forward and take certain measures in this regard. As per my idea, the Ministry of HRD will have to turn the first stone and initiate this matter.

Firstly, the School of Planning and Architecture should have a particular course for Teaching of Planning and Architectural Designing of Rural and Semi-Urban Townships and All Other Human Settlements, including designing of schools, markets, bridges, etc. Our idea should not be to transform rural villages into cities.

(Contd. by RL/3J)

-KS/RL-VNK/4.35/3J

PROF. JOGEN CHOWDHURY (contd.): That will be wrong. We must keep the quality and beauty of village life. Even the suburbs of London have beautiful hutments. Trained architects should be employed by the Government in each district Headquarter of the country. They should work in the office of District Magistrates (DM) and prepare architectural plans and designs as per the requirement of the locality, keeping the essential traditional architectural elements of the particular area and culture. Rules and regulations are to be framed accordingly. Bhutan or Bali could be good examples for us in this regard. I think the Smart City idea only sounds like an attractive plan. It is not enough to change the horizon of a vast number of semi-urban townships and rural India. Smart cities are a diversion. Finally, I would like to request the hon. Minister to establish the 4th School of Planning and Architecture in Eastern India and West Bengal, which I understand will be a School of Excellence under the Central Government. Unfortunately, West Bengal has no proper School of Planning & Architecture. The courses we have in Shibpur Engineering College/University and Jadavpur University are mainly dealing with construction side of architecture and do not deal much with the aesthetics of architecture. I hope the Minister will very kindly look into the matter and give me a time-bound response to this. My colleague, Shri K.D. Singh is moving an amendment to set up a school of planning and architecture in West Bengal.

Let me conclude by recalling what Madhavji’s idea of export of education is. I think if Indian educational institution can achieve excellence in standard, only then we can get international students to study here in India like Singapore and Western countries. There is all talk from the Government, it is good talk but there is not much visible action yet. We want something visible in the eastern part of India. Thank you.

(Ends)

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